jlou Now • 100%
Here is a short introduction to the core argument against capitalism based on liberal principles: https://www.ellerman.org/inalienable-rights-part-i-the-basic-argument/
jlou Now • 100%
The root of the loss of community that everyone feels is capitalism's total emphasis on institutional logics of exit that make everything extremely transactional while completely ignoring the dual institutional logic of commitment, cooperation and voice. Community emphasizes the latter. We need communities based around shared property, mutual aid and collective action. Incidentally, having such communities could help solve some public goods problems in a non-state manner and be more egalitarian
What are your thoughts on liberal anti-capitalism and reclaiming liberalism for the radical left? Liberal anti-capitalists typically show that capitalism is illiberal through demonstrating how it violates liberal principles. An example would be David Ellerman in: [https://www.ellerman.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Article-from-ReclaimingLiberalismEbook.pdf](https://www.ellerman.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Article-from-ReclaimingLiberalismEbook.pdf) He argues that capitalist employment violates liberal principles of justice such as the norm that legal and de facto responsibility should match implying a theory of inalienable rights [@socialism](https://beehaw.org/c/socialism)
jlou Now • 100%
I'll write one. The talk argues that employment contract is invalid due to inalienable rights. Inalienable means can't be given up even with consent. Workers' inalienable rights are rooted in their joint de facto responsibility in the firm for using up inputs to produce outputs. By the norm that legal and de facto responsibility should match, workers should get the corresponding legal responsibility, but in employment, workers as employees get 0% while employer gets 100% of results of production
Why the employer-employee relationship is based on theft and all companies should be worker-controlled - “Neo-Abolitionism: Towards Abolishing the Institution of Renting Persons” [https://youtu.be/c2UCqzH5wAQ](https://youtu.be/c2UCqzH5wAQ) [@workreform](https://lemmy.world/c/workreform)
jlou Now • 100%
You called centrists framing the debate about capitalism as one of consent vs. coercion a strawman then accepted the framing. Democratic theory requires consent. It just also requires consent to delegate ruling out consent to alienate management/governenance rights justified by inalienable rights.
Stable employee-owned firms:
https://www.nceo.org/articles/employee-ownership-100
A country that lets people sell voting rights wouldn't be democratic for long. Does democracy not work? Is it undesirable?
jlou Now • 100%
David Ellerman's modernization of the classical laborists' argument against capitalism is significantly more powerful than modern Marxism.
Marx's claim that private property is the root of capitalist appropriation has been disproven in modern theories of capitalism's property rights structure. Private property plays a role in giving bargain power to get favorable terms, but the ultimate legal basis of capitalist appropriation is the employer-employee contract
jlou Now • 100%
Postcapitalist systems can use market prices and, in principle, be Pareto optimal on non-institutionally described states of affair
A case for universal worker democracy and why capitalism is theft - "Neo-Abolitionism: Towards Abolishing the Institution of Renting Persons" [https://youtu.be/c2UCqzH5wAQ](https://youtu.be/c2UCqzH5wAQ) David Ellerman makes a unique argument for workers' control that is significantly stronger than the usual arguments the left makes as it implies that capitalism is invalid even when it is fully voluntary [@breadtube](https://lemmy.world/c/breadtube)
jlou Now • 100%
Not a strawman. There are tons of examples of framing the capitalism issue in terms of consent vs coercion. Nozick talks about capitalist acts between consenting adults etc.
Many worker coops and majority employee-owned ESOPs exist today. It works.
Democratic theory argues that contracts based on consent to alienate are inherently invalid. Since the employment system is on the "wrong" side, the original theory invalidating these contracts is ignored and forgotten
jlou Now • 100%
Alienist vs inalienist refers to whether voting/control rights are transferable (alienable).
Better to say institutions based on consent to alienate vs delegate
Voting rights' transferability with alienist systems implies inequality, but the core point is consent to alienate vs. delegate.
The employment contract is inherently an alienation contract. The workers give up and transfer the management rights to the employer and the employer manages in their own name
jlou Now • 66%
Alienist refers to alienation of rights.
Alienist = completely give up and transfer control rights with the recipient ruling in their own name and not in the name of the people governed
Inalienist = revocable delegation where the people retain control rights with the delegates governing in the name of the people governed
Democratic theory draws a distinction between these 2 types of contracts, and invalidates the former
The diagram should say alienation vs. delegation
Economic Socialism is Teaching Me What a Free Market Actually Looks Like [https://joelleichty.com/2024/03/18/economic-socialism-is-teaching-me-what-a-free-market-actually-looks-like/](https://joelleichty.com/2024/03/18/economic-socialism-is-teaching-me-what-a-free-market-actually-looks-like/) [@socialism](https://beehaw.org/c/socialism)
The diagram centrists don't want you to see Centrism frames the debate about capitalism as one of consent vs. coercion and argue that capitalism is fine because workers consent in the legal sense to the labor contract. Democratic theory recognizes a distinction among voluntary contracts i.e. consent to alienate vs. consent to delegate. A centrist can't appeal to this distinction because capitalism and political democracy are on opposite sides [@progressivepolitics](https://lemmy.world/c/progressivepolitics)
jlou Now • 100%
You just mention the community in the post
jlou Now • 100%
What would be a more appropriate community?
The diagram capitalist liberals don't want you to see Capitalists frame the debate about capitalism as one of consent versus coercion and argue that capitalism is acceptable because workers consent in the legal sense to the employment contract. Democratic theory recognized a further distinction among voluntary contracts i.e. consent to alienate vs. consent to delegate. Capitalists can't appeal to this distinction because capitalism and political democracy are on opposite sides [@politicalmemes](https://lemmy.world/c/politicalmemes)
jlou Now • 100%
Private property rests on the principle of people getting the fruits of their labor. In other words, private property appropriation has a labor-basis that capitalism denies. Capitalism violates the very principle behind private property by giving workers 0% joint claim on the positive and negative fruits of their labor
"Property is theft!" -- Proudhon
The employment contract is what really enables capitalist appropriation.
I agree with your critique of capitalist liberal democracy
jlou Now • 100%
Because most liberals don't consistently apply their own principles. A principle that liberals are inconsistent with is the juridical principle of imputation, the norm of legal and de facto responsibility matching. They ignore this norm's routine violation in the capitalist firm. Here, despite the workers joint de facto responsibility for production, the employer is solely legally responsible for 100% of the positive and negative results of production while workers as employees get 0%
jlou Now • 50%
Private property isn't as supportive of capitalism as it initially seems. Classical laborists (e.g. Proudhon) and their modern intellectual descendants (e.g. David Ellerman) argue that the positive and negative results of production are the private property of the workers in the firm. This argument immediately implies a worker coop structure mandate on all firms and rules out capitalism. Capitalism is so indefensible that even private property requires the abolition of capitalism
jlou Now • 100%
The academic definition would be the systems of the historical Eastern Bloc countries or a hypothetical society that has somehow completely abolished commodity production
jlou Now • 50%
Rhetorically, it doesn't matter how I define the term. It matters how people use it.
The way I would define it is either the systems of historical Eastern Bloc countries or a hypothetical society that has somehow completely abolished commodity production
Does economic education spoil students’ morality? Economists and the Trolley problem [https://www.economics-sociology.eu/?1030,en\_does-economic-education-spoil-students’-morality-economists-and-the-trolley-problem](https://www.economics-sociology.eu/?1030,en_does-economic-education-spoil-students’-morality-economists-and-the-trolley-problem) [@humanities](https://beehaw.org/c/humanities)
jlou Now • 100%
A worker coop is an example of joint self-employment. The workers are not employees, and the employer-employee relationship is abolished in worker coops
jlou Now • 92%
I'm not a socialist, but what I advocate for is explicitly postcapitalist.
Some postcapitalist policies include
- All firms are mandated to be worker coops similar to how local governments are mandated to be democratic
- Land and natural resources are collectivized with a 100% land value tax and various sorts of emission taxes etc
- Voluntary democratic collectives that manage collectivized means of production and provide start up funds to worker coops
- UBI
jlou Now • 75%
Market economies aren't exclusive to capitalism. A postcapitalist society could use markets in some places.
It is capitalism's defenders, who are unscientific. Basic facts are unmentionable to capitalism's supporters. The fact that only persons can be responsible and things no matter how causally efficacious can't be responsible for anything is unmentionable in an economic context. The employer's appropriation of 100% of the positive and negative fruits of labor is obfuscated
The Problem of Collective Harm: A Threshold Solution [https://ejpe.org/journal/article/view/798](https://ejpe.org/journal/article/view/798) "Many harms are collective: they are due to several individual actions that are as such harmless. At least in some cases, it seems impermissible to contribute to such harms, even if individual agents do not make a difference. The Problem of Collective Harm is the challenge of explaining why. I argue that, if the action is to be [moral], the probability of making a difference to harm must be small enough." [@humanities](https://beehaw.org/c/humanities)
Why capitalists are coming out against democracy - "Does classical liberalism imply democracy?" [https://www.ellerman.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Reprint-EGP-Classical-Liberalism-Democracy.pdf](https://www.ellerman.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Reprint-EGP-Classical-Liberalism-Democracy.pdf) "There is a fault line running through ... liberalism as to whether or not democratic self- governance is a necessary part of a liberal social order. The democratic and non-democratic strains of classical liberalism are both present today. Many ... libertarians ... represent the non-democratic strain in their promotion of non-democratic sovereign city-states." [@sneerclub](https://awful.systems/c/sneerclub)
A profoundly stupid case about video game cheating could transform adblocking into a copyright infringement [https://pluralistic.net/2024/07/29/faithful-user-agents/#hard-cases-make-bad-copyright-law](https://pluralistic.net/2024/07/29/faithful-user-agents/#hard-cases-make-bad-copyright-law) [@socialism](https://beehaw.org/c/socialism)
Utility, social utility, democracy, and altruistic and moral behavior from unexploitability, Darwinian evolution, and tribes [https://www.rangevoting.org/OmoUtil.html](https://www.rangevoting.org/OmoUtil.html) "S.M.Omohundro in 2007, by building on and/or simplifying ideas by a large number of economists, demonstrated that the philosophy of utilitarianism is forced upon an organism if that organism wishes to be "unexploitable." Exploitable organisms presumably tend to get exploited, suffer a competitive disadvantage." [@humanities](https://beehaw.org/c/humanities)
Pro-market anti-capitalism Many on the left conflate markets with capitalism and oppose both. This is a mistake. Markets freed from capitalism where every workers' inalienable right to worker democracy may be useful, and help avoid the calculation problem. That being said, I'm highly sympathetic to those that seek to explore what might be possible without markets as that area is under-explored. Ultimately, we should emphasize worker coops Here is an non-nuanced meme [@politicalmemes](https://lemmy.world/c/politicalmemes)
"Inalienable Rights: Part I The Basic Argument" - what Nozick and Rothbard got wrong [https://www.ellerman.org/inalienable-rights-part-i-the-basic-argument/](https://www.ellerman.org/inalienable-rights-part-i-the-basic-argument/) “An inalienable right is a right that may not be ceded or transferred away even with the consent of the holders of the right. Any contract to alienate such a right would be an inherently invalid contract, and, vice-versa, a right such that any contract to alienate it was inherently invalid would thus be an inalienable right.” [@libertarianism](https://lemmy.world/c/libertarianism)
A moral argument for why all firms should be employee-owned - "Inalienable Right: Part 1 The Basic Argument" [https://www.ellerman.org/inalienable-rights-part-i-the-basic-argument/](https://www.ellerman.org/inalienable-rights-part-i-the-basic-argument/) [@general](https://lemmy.world/c/general)
Partial Common Ownership: A New Model for Ownership - A new alternative to capitalist private property that addresses scarcity in the small Partial Common Ownership (PCO) is a flexible template for reconfiguring property relations, which has inspired many of us at RadicalxChange because it opens the door to a different kind of conversation about capitalism. [https://www.radicalxchange.org/media/blog/pco-a-new-model-of-ownership/](https://www.radicalxchange.org/media/blog/pco-a-new-model-of-ownership/) [@anarchism](https://slrpnk.net/c/anarchism)
Partial Common Ownership: A New Model for Ownership - A new alternative to capitalist private property [https://www.radicalxchange.org/media/blog/pco-a-new-model-of-ownership/](https://www.radicalxchange.org/media/blog/pco-a-new-model-of-ownership/) The main disagreement I have with the article is that voting rights over management of firms should lie exclusively with workers. Besides that, the alternative described should be interesting to anti-capitalists. The revenue from partial common ownership could be allocated using non-market mechanisms in democratic communities [@leftism](https://lemmy.world/c/leftism)
"Inalienable Rights: Part I The Basic Argument" - All responsibility lies with workers [https://www.ellerman.org/inalienable-rights-part-i-the-basic-argument/](https://www.ellerman.org/inalienable-rights-part-i-the-basic-argument/) [@socialism](https://beehaw.org/c/socialism)
AI, Guaranteed Income, and the “Which Way Is Up?” Problem Afflicting Our Elites [https://cepr.net/ai-guaranteed-income-and-the-which-way-is-up-problem-afflicting-our-elites/](https://cepr.net/ai-guaranteed-income-and-the-which-way-is-up-problem-afflicting-our-elites/) [@politics](https://beehaw.org/c/politics)
Rethinking free and open source and its role in the movement against capitalism - "Copyfarleft and Copyjustright" [https://www.metamute.org/editorial/articles/copyfarleft-and-copyjustright](https://www.metamute.org/editorial/articles/copyfarleft-and-copyjustright) This is an interesting paper and something like this should be explored. Although, I would shift the anti-capitalist analysis to the labor theory of property and shift some of the critique of property to employment contracts. [@socialism](https://beehaw.org/c/socialism)
Capital Has No Borders—Why Should We? Precarious immigration status creates an exploitable labor force, allowing bosses to drive down wages for everyone. Inside the labor case for open borders: [https://inthesetimes.com/article/capital-open-borders-immigration-labor-exploitation-migrant-crisis-urban-citizenship](https://inthesetimes.com/article/capital-open-borders-immigration-labor-exploitation-migrant-crisis-urban-citizenship) [@politics](https://beehaw.org/c/politics)
J Lou
jlou@ mastodon.socialAn #EconomicDemocracy is a market economy where most firms are structured as #WorkerCoops.